Talk:West and East
Phase 1 of the Conversation (Just to Get the Contents Up Top) My what a detailed title. So much for Stalin's War, anyhow. Turtle Fan 20:34, November 12, 2009 (UTC) :I think there is Evidence that Del Rey will change the title to Stalin's War by June, 2010. TR 21:04, November 12, 2009 (UTC) ::Most likely. There's Evidence! of whatever one needs there to be Evidence! of. :::Which is probably why that joke manages to keep going well past its shelf-life. TR 22:12, November 12, 2009 (UTC) ::::It is rather dated, isn't it. Ah, those were the days. Turtle Fan 22:59, November 12, 2009 (UTC) :: Already I'm thinking about this book and anticipating picking it up. Why? HW was thoroughly uninspiring and I'm pretty indifferent to seeing how such cliffhangers as there were in the last one resolved. Actually, I'm having a hard time coming up with such cliffhangers. All I've got is the Japanese invasion of Siberia or Kazakhstan or wherever they went in. ::All the one-star reviews in the world won't pressure HT to go back to telling better stories if we keep buying the books we don't like. Turtle Fan 21:17, November 12, 2009 (UTC) :::I'm also in more or less the same position. I think my feelings towards the book were a bit less negative than yours, even though I think our criticisms of the book are perfectly aligned. I did find just enough entertainment value in it that I am curious about the next volume. It's not anything remotely like the genuine I excitement I felt during the early volumes of 191, or Worldwar, or even Atlantis, of course. ::::I guess my feelings are negative. I don't hate the book the way I do TGS or even TG. I guess I resent that HT would tell such an uninteresting story with such undeveloped characters. The premises of both the story and the characters lend themselves to so much more, and I still remember HT at his prime--and have seen plenty of that in recent works, like FP, EIaK, OA, and some of this year's shorts--that I'm profoundly disappointed when he mails it in. I would expect this from someone like Conroy or Harrison or even Tsouras, though BF led me to revise my opinion of him upward quite a bit. From one of those writers, after a story like this fell flat I'd just say "A sequel coming out? Who gives a fuck?" Turtle Fan 22:59, November 12, 2009 (UTC) ::::And yes, the older series really were so exciting. I'd throw Derlavai in there, too, or at least most of it. Even WBtP was exciting for me, which is ridiculous since I knew how the story ended. Turtle Fan 22:59, November 12, 2009 (UTC) :::I think this book's biggest problem was the focus on the average soldier/citizen to the exclusion of all else. Usually HT is able to strike a better balance--he's always more interested in the little guy, but he has mixed in some of the bigger picture of politicians and generals in the past. In AF, for example, Anne was there to rub shoulders with Wilson, and Flora clued us in on Remembrance politics. We had NOTHING like this in HW. Just Sanjurjo's pilot and Hitler himself. Everything else was sort of blurry. ::::In the last couple of books of TL-191 this was already coming to pass, particularly when Morrell became army commander but just ignored his responsibilities in favor of playing with his tank (I mean, come on! Montgomery did that from time to time, and he wasn't the only one, but he only did it on occasion, and he certainly didn't neglect his duties at HQ to do so.) and Potter getting transferred to the front. (I like how Featherston told him "I did everything I could to keep you here." Right, it's not like even the democratic version of the POTCS is commander-in-chief, with power to countermand any order by anyone in the military, and that as dictator Featherston is even stronger, with power of life and death over every single person between Potter and him in the chain of command. It would have made wonderful sense, now, if Potter had been plotting with Forrest, Featherston had suspicions and wanted to split them up without letting on that he'd figured it out; but it wasn't. That's one thing I hate about so many of HT's novels these days: Things that make no sense at all could be turned into really intelligent developments with just minor tweaking.) But it's much worse in HW. Turtle Fan 22:59, November 12, 2009 (UTC) :::Would the book have been better if we checked in with Hans in Defense Ministry (or whatever it was called), fretting endlessly about whether or not Germany could overrun Paris before its war machine was stretched to its limits? I think so, for no other reason that the ending would have been more plausible. Same thing with the General's plot. Same thing with the fall of Gibraltar; just one scene were British General Idiot prepares to meet Sanjuro's zig, and is completely caught off guard when Sanjurjo zags would have given us a much better understanding of what happened there. ::::Yeah, a single clue that the Germans might not have enough left in the tank to roll over Paris as they'd rolled over everything else would have saved the book for me--the laziness evident in the ending pushed me over the edge. You wouldn't even need to add a new character; just have Peggy spy instead of sitting around, and get acquainted with Hans. Sending info to Britain by way of her contact at the embassy, sealed in the diplomatic bag, would be icing on that cake. ::::As for the fall of Gibraltar, it reminds me of the operations on TG like the Cuban rebellion, the amphibious assault on Baja CA, et cetera that HT introduced but never followed through on. It's like, after he wrote the scene, he decided it was too boring to go anywhere, but didn't bother taking out what he'd already written. ::::Another note on characters is, in even HT's best war novels, the front-line POVs see and do a lot of the same things, but they're still differentiated for us. We're still invested enough in each of them as an individual, or most of them anyway, that we can keep track of who's who with no trouble. Almost all of the characters in HW were completely undeveloped. I couldn't tell them apart because there was nothing, not one blessed thing, about any of them that made them real people to me. Turtle Fan 22:59, November 12, 2009 (UTC) :::I wonder if HT's decision to work in broad strokes was based on the fact that the situation politically hasn't changed much from OTL. ::::But it has! I'd love to see Chamberlain's war leadership. And Hitler purging the military in a Stalinesque fashion--He didn't do that till the end. I'd love to see the effect it has on German military and government during what still corresponds to the OTL period memorialized as springtime for Hitler and Germany. Turtle Fan 22:59, November 12, 2009 (UTC) :::::Compared with two rival republics in North America, the changes aren't huge. I'm not defending HT here, but let's face it, at this moment, Chamberlain has been a wartime PM for about as long as he was in OTL, the Czechs are in exile as in OTL, Stalin is killing people as in OTL, and the French are useless as in OTL. Would the novel have been better if there were closer examinations of these issues? It certainly would have diversified things, anyway. But I could sort of see why HT had things happen the way they did initially, since I know what happened in OTL, and there isn't much reason to think it would have been that different right off (whether or not I should have to rely on my knowledge to fill in gaps in a work of fiction is up for debate of course). I am perhaps inclined to be forgiving of these issues for now. If he doesn't at least try to address them in later volumes, especially as changes are going to be setting in, I'll be unhappy. TR 23:43, November 12, 2009 (UTC) ::::::Well--I'm the one who's been complaining that this version of WWII is not sufficiently different from the real one. The fact that the war prematurely ejaculated and that Poland switched sides (well, sort of half-switched sides--They were at war with the Russians in OTL too, they just didn't get German help)--These are not history-changing details; they're the sort of thing that factors out as events unfold. ::::::I'm not too keen on being expected to use prior knowledge to figure out fiction; but on the other hand I'm not too keen on books posing as AH that really aren't. Watching things unfold just like they did in OTL would likely annoy me. The most comparable situation I can think of is USA, when I bitched that we didn't see much of the root causes of the Atlantean grievances against the British, nor their political as opposed to military expressions. I think I would have enjoyed that; but then, by then Atlantis was billed as parallel history. Turtle Fan 03:22, November 13, 2009 (UTC) :::::Now the changes were presented as the novel went, such as the plot against Hitler, should have been shown. I realize that most soliders and civilians are are going to have a hard time knowing just what the hell is going on in every detail, but why should the reader be kept in the dark? TR 23:43, November 12, 2009 (UTC) ::::::Because then there would be no time to watch that rafish Pete McGill on his madcap Beijing adventures, of course! ::::::I was trying to come up with a repetitive element to mock (something along the lines of "We can't watch Forrest's conspiracy unfold because then there would be no time to compare the quality of cigarettes, of course!") but there's so little substance to this book I can't even get excited about mocking it from that angle. Turtle Fan 03:22, November 13, 2009 (UTC) :::Anyway, the biggest thing that keeps my spirits up at this point, as I've said countless times before: no other novels planned for 2010 that we know of. Hopefully, that translates to more time to really work on this one. TR 22:12, November 12, 2009 (UTC) ::::We can hope. At this point I'd rather he write other novels, though. More straight HF, more comedies like EIaK. Those seem to take less out of him and I have more confidence in his ability to do something with that than in his ability to save this series. ::::Historically, his series tend to get worse over time, not better. I never read EotB but I've heard you and others say it's better than DoI. Thinking of TL-191, Worldwar, and Derlavai (though there was less variation and the finale did recapture much of the old magic), DoI comes across as a rather lonely exception. ::::Hell, even USA wasn't as enjoyable as OA. I think it was you who said it felt like he'd had a semi-novel like the last story in OA ready to go and decided to push it to full-length at the eleventh hour. I agree! Turtle Fan 22:59, November 12, 2009 (UTC) :::::That probably was me. I certainly felt that way about it, anyway. TR 23:43, November 12, 2009 (UTC) ::::::Well it would be around here somewhere if you did. Of course, the topic drift on our talk pages would make it rather difficult to track down stray quotes like that, wouldn't you think? Turtle Fan 03:22, November 13, 2009 (UTC) I find the cover oddly pleasing to the eye. Not sure why. The cover copy means nothing. Hitler made the same mistake in 1939 in OTL, and the world paid. TR 04:51, December 20, 2009 (UTC) :(yawn) Looks to me like a lame-ass attempt to build suspense in a dull story. Besides, how can the book be set in 1938 when Reggie Jackson wasn't even born until 1946? :I agree with you on the other point, though. I was about to comment on it, actually: That's a sexy cover. It will look good on my shelf collecting dust after I've slogged my way through it--though actually, I really am considering not spending money for more of the same quality entertainment HW offered. Turtle Fan 05:43, December 20, 2009 (UTC) LA Talk Page Transplant (Predictions and Jokes) :Western Front bogs down into a WWI parallel. Eastern front much the same way. Siberian Front: the USSR finds itself fighting a two-front war. Stalin is pissed, and throws as much as he can that direction. Some military leaders suggest that this is unnecessary, let the elements take their toll on Japan, and the real enemy is Germany. :Or maybe not. TR 20:19, February 7, 2010 (UTC) :I predict the characters will fail to distinguish themselves and, since most of them are in similar situations, their scenes will run very much together. ::I wish I could tell you you're wrong, but...*takes a drag off a cigarette*. TR 23:04, February 7, 2010 (UTC) :::Is that a Confederate cigarette? If so, got one to spare? Even if it's not I'll take whatever you've got. Bad cigarettes are still better than no cigarettes--I wonder what that says about us? :::Actually, I wish HT had shown a character or two motivated to quit smoking by the dropping quality. Armstrong, for instance, had only started a few months before the war started, hadn't he? Ditto Flora's son. They wouldn't have been hooked; they would still have been in it because they decided it was cool enough to justify a conscious effort, and if it suddenly started sucking. . . . :::Ah, who cares. That ship sailed long ago. If it's still at sea somewhere, I hope it meanders through the range of Fritz-Julius Lemp's periscope. About time Lemp pulled his weight around here. Turtle Fan 04:42, February 8, 2010 (UTC) :Pete McGill will meander aimlessly around Shanghai, occasionally getting pissed on by the Japanese garrison, and will put together a mildly interesting travelogue of one of the most rollicking cities in any place and time in world history. Emphasis will be on brothels. ::See above. :Peggy will remain in Berlin, where opportunities for espionage will abound. Everyone there thinks she's a spy, so she will try to prove them long by failing to be a spy at all. Instead she will obtain from Ribbentrop's office a list of all the countries in the world with which the Nazis maintain diplomatic relations, and will work her way down that list, requesting extradition to one country per scene. ::See above. :Trapped in the heart of Nazi Germany, with the vise of the Holocaust tightening ever around her, slowly extinguishing everyone and everything in her life that's ever mattered, Sarah Goldman will soon find herself lonely and desperate, cut off from the ones she loved, and forced into a death-defying gamble to make something interesting happen in this book. At this she will fail. ::See above. :FDR will lose the 1940 election to an isolationist Republican. ::I doubt we'll make it to the election in vol. 2. HW covered like Sept, '38 to April, '39. Not unheard of for him to jump forward a few years, but, not common either in his war series. (Yes, I know this is a build up to a joke.) :::Well maybe not. Or maybe he'll invite Philip Roth in as a guest co-author to write about Lindbergh becoming president, starting the Holocaust, disappearing, and FDR coming roaring back to hit the most complete Reset button this side of a Star Trek time travel story (most recent movie excluded, alas). My God that was a useless book. Turtle Fan 04:42, February 8, 2010 (UTC) :47 British MPs will be killed in a terrorist assault on Westminster Abbey; the IRA will be framed but it will in fact be the SS. ::I think he's saving that for the sequel to MWiH. :::Oh joy. Turtle Fan 04:42, February 8, 2010 (UTC) :An earthquake in the Pyrenees will cause the Iberian Peninsula to detach itself from Europe. ::Didn't that happen already? :Hitler will attempt to purge a popular general in Poland and two divisions loyal to him will rise up in mutiny. ::Quite plausible, actually. Building on your vague sideswitch idea, could Hitler reach a temporary peace with Stalin just by saying "Here take Poland" in a bid to resolve the France issue? Would Stalin agree, or would he be canny enough to realize Hitler was stalling, and now was the best time to keep going? Could the USSR keep going for that matter? :::None of these were intended seriously but now that you mention it this would be interesting. I drew the inspiration from the middle Birmo AoT book. All the world's dictators read their own histories and discover who ends up betraying them (though Beria moves heaven and earth to keep Stalin from learning of his daughter's defection). Hitler finds out that Rommel would have turned on him and assumes he can't be trusted under any circumstances. He sends the Gestapo to arrest the Desert Fox and half the Afrika Korps mutinies. :::Either a Hitler-Stalin ceasefire or a version of WWII in which the Western Front is considered the primary front all the way through could produce interesting divergence. That would make the book worth reading even if the characters all suck and the writing is half-assed. But ever since seeing the title I've had a sinking feeling that it will be devoted to shifting the focus of the action to where it was in OTL. Turtle Fan 04:42, February 8, 2010 (UTC) :In OTL Hitler tried to puppet Poland by bringing into Anti-Comintern Pact. Poland was far better prepared to fight Soviets then Germans(terrain, fortifications, war plans) and Red Army was crippled by purges. But then again, it is Turtledove, so I doubt any historic research will be present. :Furious that the Prime Minister has adopted the Army's plan to wage a land war in the Russian Far East, the upper echelons of the IJN will launch a coup d'etat against the Diet. ::That would be kind of cool, too. Would the IJN take that stance though? :::I doubt it. Certainly Yamamoto would not be on board. And even if the leadership wanted to, I suspect the rank-and-file sailors would refuse if the Emperor made known his displeasure. Turtle Fan 04:42, February 8, 2010 (UTC) :All of these earth-shaking developments will be brought to our attention in the most dramatic way possible, by one bitplayer mentioning offhandedly to another that it happened some time earlier. Turtle Fan 22:37, February 7, 2010 (UTC) ::I fear you are right. Then again, there is still plenty of time for HT to find ways to actually show us these important events rather than tell us about them after the fact, or worse, vaguely hint at them after the fact. TR 23:04, February 7, 2010 (UTC) :::Considering that HW contained fewer than a dozen scenes which were truly indispensible, and that even those had room in which to be reworked, I don't think it was time constraints which led him to mention all the offstage shit. Turtle Fan 04:42, February 8, 2010 (UTC) I wonder if Turtledove mentions Romania In OTL by 1938 Romania and Poland had a military alliance-both would defend each other in case of Soviet invasion. But knowing him, I guess such details will be missed. ::Or it could be addressed. Either way, as in real life, an alliance is only good if all parties actually honor it. It's not as if Poland can force Romania to honor their deal. TR 03:08, March 7, 2010 (UTC) :::This as well. I believe Romania was already obligated to defend Czechoslovakia against Hungarian aggression. Granted that was very much a sideshow, but they still reneged on the alliance, as did Yugoslavia. :Then Hungary and Romania would be on the same side--We know they're at loggerheads. Though Hungary's not really a German ally anymore since Czechoslovakia fell. :Antonescu's rise to power, like the war itself, came early. That might make it likelier Romania will join the Axis, or it might not mean much at all. Turtle Fan 02:27, March 7, 2010 (UTC) ::Hungary is pretty much of a free-agent at this point. I don't recall it having any political alliances/pacts that it was bound by. That might be interesting to have Hungary as a sort of Allied co-belligerent. Or not. TR 03:08, March 7, 2010 (UTC) :::I think they'll end up on Hitler's side. There's something of a pan-Fascist brotherhood seems to be in the works. They all hang together. Even to the point that they forget to be racist toward one another. Turtle Fan 04:07, March 7, 2010 (UTC) Plot summary available Here. My curiosity is piqued by a couple of things--the French sniper vs. German sniper sounds promising. And it sounds like our American Marine Friend may do something of interest. TR 16:42, April 8, 2010 (UTC) :They were able to make the last one sound interesting in the promotional material, too. Still, a few things caught my attention: ::*If Singapore is controlled by Japan that means they went to war with Britain, and surely other Western European allies as well. Since they just committed to a war against the USSR and the Second Sino-Japanese War slogs on, that seems a mite overambitious. But I assume the writer meant to say Shanghai--They all look alike, after all. The Russian in the dance hall and Chinese resistance further this assumption. At any rate, I would certainly look forward to the chance to explore Old Shanghai. (I was planning to explore New Shanghai firsthand this summer, but I had to call that off in the face of economic disaster.) :::I'd come the conclusion that Singapore meant Shanghai myself. Not unheard of for typos like that in cover copy. Then again, Japan overreaching itself is a bit of theme in HT works. ::::What HT did with Japan at the end--and it's perhaps the most original thing he did in the book--was have Tokyo choose the Army's plan of pushing north and fighting Russia over the Navy's plan of pushing south and fighting the US and Western European imperialists. Given how intense the argument over the two plans was, all the bad blood born of it and the interservice rivalry it spawned, surely no one would say "Why not do both? While continuing the war against China, of course?" A three front war, against every great power in the world except Germany--There's the stupidity of a move born of overconfidence or some other common attribute that affects the judgment of a nation's leaders, and then there's stupidity of a sort so great you never could possibly have ascended to a position of enough authority to have a voice in the decision making process. Imagine a chess tournament inviting someone who thought it was a good idea to open with a rook's pawn. Turtle Fan 19:28, April 8, 2010 (UTC) ::However, I remain extremely skeptical that McGill is capable of doing anything interesting. :::Well, the Russian Dance Hall girl might be a Chekist, and the previously anti-Commie McGill could...stop laughing, it could happen. TR 18:33, April 8, 2010 (UTC) ::::Well . . . with Japan at war with the USSR, I suppose the NKVD would want to set something up in Shanghai, and trying to blend in with the White Russians would be the way to do it. Still, I have to think that if McGill were to stumble into something so convoluted, he'd be too obtuse to notice, so unless HT adds a second, much sharper, POV. . . . ::::It would be interesting to see how if at all HT reacts to fans' complaints about McGill in particular, though. If HT notices our reactions at all, he'll realize we're fast losing patience with this walking intermission. Does he notice us at all? Well--In IatD Carsten abruptly stopped talking about his mission to Ireland in GWI. That's really the only indication I have that he noticed, though that could mean any number of other things. Fan complaints about all the cigarette talk may have led him to make the last paragraph of IatD as something of a joke. Or a flip-off, but that would be pretty brazen considering we're the people who pay his bills. Though we've bought most of his books since then just the same. Turtle Fan 19:28, April 8, 2010 (UTC) :::::I do remember fans complaining about the CS getting all the cool weapons, and then in IatD, a US character complaining about how the CS gets all the cool weapons. I think some of that stuff must filter to him. It's worth pointing out though that complaints about McGill are almost exclusively aired here. Actually, discussion about the series generally is aired here, so that may prove nothing. TR 20:22, April 8, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Oh . . . I'm pretty out of the loop beyond the Wiki these days. I just assume we speak for everyone. I bitched about McGill in my Amazon review but I don't think he came up in the handful of others I read. ::::::That's something that would have made Silver useful, actually. He has HT's ear. Maybe I should start hitting up Videssos again. Nah. Turtle Fan 20:39, April 8, 2010 (UTC) ::::::By the way, I think the US getting the cool weapons would have pleased fans of that inclination more than someone echoing them in-universe. Turtle Fan 20:39, April 8, 2010 (UTC) ::*So Hitler himself authorizes Peggy's departure. I admit, I'm intrigued as to how she got his attention. Though if she just goes home I don't see how she can avoid becoming even less relevant than she was in HW. I complained about the lack of a homefront POV in TG and IatD, but now I want Peggy not to return to the US. Especially if it remains neutral. Who the hell wants to hear about civilian life in a neutral country in a war story? :::If Peggy meets Hitler, that could lead to her doing Interesting Things on the homefront, like become a pro-war activist (or an anti-war activist). Stop laughing, it could happen. TR 18:33, April 8, 2010 (UTC) ::::Thrilling. Turtle Fan 19:28, April 8, 2010 (UTC) ::*Though the idea that we'll see efforts to make the US neutral no longer has the potential to spice things up a bit. Maybe we will give Joe Kennedy a TWTPE section after all. Should let Gizzi finally make peace with the fact that 191 is over. :::Indeed. TR 18:33, April 8, 2010 (UTC) ::*I suspect the sniper in France is not a Frenchman but Jaclav or whatever his name is. He's the one with the antitank gun. As for the sniper duel itself, HT did something like that in Derlavai. I think it was during Sullingen. An Algarvian sniper stalked an Unkerlanter sniper and vice versa. The battle came to a breathtakingly thrilling climax when someone mentioned offhandedly that they'd killed each other some time earlier. :::Ah, yes, The War of the Rats, filmed as Enemy at the Gates. With a POV as one of the snipers, the likelihood that the plotline unfolds in an interesting manner does increase. TR 18:33, April 8, 2010 (UTC) ::::Whatever Darkness book this was came out the same spring a EatG did. I assumed the latter influenced the former. Maybe the reason it was written so half-assedly was that HT slapped it on at the last minute when he realized the possible connection. :::::Could be. But that is one of the celebrated events/myths of Stalingrad. HT might have decided to throw it in to Darkness just to have more parallels, and, coincidentally, the movie came out that year. TR 20:25, April 8, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Yeah, that could be. It was handled so uninterestingly that I half-suspected HT was parodying the celebration of events and myths in Stalingrad. Turtle Fan 20:39, April 8, 2010 (UTC) ::::Maybe the Allied sniper is not Jaclav. Maybe someone says "You know, Jaclav, another guy with that rifle used it as a sniper weapon. The Huns sent another sniper out here especially to bag him. That was the end of him, so watch yourself." I think I'd laugh until I cried. But I do think, or hope, or tell myself, that such an irrelevant vignette wouldn't make itself into so short a synopsis. Turtle Fan 19:28, April 8, 2010 (UTC) ::*By the end of HW I was so bored that I forgot what device was on the U-Boat, just that the engineer who worked with it would ordinarily have been too tall for submarine duty. Something to let it stay submerged longer, was it? :::Wait, that device was described in HW? I guess I need to re-scan it. TR 18:33, April 8, 2010 (UTC) ::::I don't even remember whether it was described. I remember that some tall dude went onto the U-Boat to play with some new equipment. He wore a Stalhelm all the time because he kept banging his head on doorways and pipes and shit. ::::That's all I remember about it. Flogging my brain for a detail from the middle chapters of HW is like trying to remember what I did at 3:15 on a tediously quiet Sunday afternoon when no games were on and there was nothing to do. Turtle Fan 19:28, April 8, 2010 (UTC) ::*I wonder why they need to go to such elaborate preparations just to grab Denmark. In OTL, Norway proved a bit of a challenge, at least logistically, but Denmark? The Heer just woke up one morning and were like "Yeah, maybe we'll pick that off after lunch." Turtle Fan 18:02, April 8, 2010 (UTC) :::True, but that was before the Battle of France began in OTL. Here, the Battle of France is underway, and we know the German offensive has halted, so allocating resources for Denmark might actually be costly and logistical problems may abound. TR 18:33, April 8, 2010 (UTC) ::::Maybe. I might ask why they feel they need it at all. As I recall in OTL they grabbed it as a bridge to Norway, which they wanted for harbors on the open ocean. But they knew they wouldn't win the war navally. The oil fields weren't discovered till the 70s--thank God!--so it seems like a Scandinavian campaign would be a frivolous use of resources if it couldn't be taken easily. Unless they want the Hydro Norsk Plant. ::::I realize I'm only thinking about Norway instead of Denmark, but while this part of WWII is not my forte, for the life of me I can't think about anything in Denmark itself that's so worthwhile the Germans would take troops off the line in France to grab it. Maybe it's a deliberately dumb move to show that German strategic planning is suffering as a result of the SS purges. Turtle Fan 19:28, April 8, 2010 (UTC) :::::Aside from possible territorial claims Germany might have in Denmark, I got nothing. Maybe Denmark starts flirting with the Allies? TR 20:22, April 8, 2010 (UTC) ::::::All of a sudden they start pressing claims against Denmark that have nothing to do with Versailles. Timing could be better. And looking at Denmark's neighborhood, flirting with the Allies without being provoked would not be very wise. But then I shouldn't assume HT's got no good reason without taking a look at it. If nothing else it will be a change of pace. Turtle Fan 20:39, April 8, 2010 (UTC) :::::Actually, this blurb does have me interested in W&E in general, in spite of myself. Turtle Fan 20:39, April 8, 2010 (UTC) Something Rotten in the State of Denmark Hey wait, wasn't Denmark Peggy's first choice for escaping from Germany before Ribbentrop clipped her wings? Most of Germany's borders will take her into a combat zone. Going to Hungary, as the gay consul said, would be the end of the line if Bucharest and Belgrade are feeling cranky. Switzerland is uselessly landlocked, Italy is also at war. So if Peggy wants to get out of Axis territory quickly, without trouble, before Hitler changes his mind, Denmark's the way to go. It's the most direct route out anyway, at least with France and the Low Countries being an active front, and surely a safe passage signed by the dictator gives her choice of border crossings. So I'm saying Peggy suddenly becomes a super-spy. She obtains some piece of intelligence so valuable that it would certainly bring the US onto the Allied side. She charms Hitler into letting her go, but then moments too late the Gestapo tells him that she has this magic piece of information. He scrambles to recall her but she's already in Denmark and the Danes won't detain her. Keeping her from getting home with her intelligence is so vitally important that it alone justifies violating Danish neutrality, even justifies taking men off the line in France. Now I don't believe that's actually going to happen as I predicted, but Peggy will surely leave through Denmark anyway, so maybe she gets caught up in the invasion as she had in Czechoslovakia. Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in. . . . It would be in keeping with the repetitiveness of her scenes, anyhow. Turtle Fan 02:18, April 9, 2010 (UTC) :I like the possibilities of your idea. ::Well thanks. I've been openly dismissive of the possibility that this book will include, well, anything interesting, but I've decided to give it a chance after all and see if I can't cobble together something interesting from such spoilers as become available. Of course, that's setting me up for disappointment if it does turn into another snoozefest, and might also be unfair to HT--setting the bar so high on a story that he's not bringing his best stuff to. But something like I've described might easily have been a plotpoint in Worldwar or Videssos or some other "glory days" HT story. Turtle Fan 16:35, April 9, 2010 (UTC) :You know one thing that bothered me about Peggy. Right off the bat, Germans were going to send her to Romania, and she refused. And then after some months, she was begging to go anywhere. Now, I realize people live to regret their decisions all the time, but it was just so obviously HT letting the wire show, so to speak, and I could never quite get past it. TR 14:50, April 9, 2010 (UTC) ::Hmm, yeah. It hadn't bothered me all that much, because as you say it's common enough for people to regret their decisions. It would have been a very believable setup for Peggy's story, if there had been such a story. There wasn't, but that's not so much the fault of what you point out as it is . . . that the book just sucked. ::Well no, it didn't suck, but there was so much you had to sit through and so little payoff for doing so. Turtle Fan 16:35, April 9, 2010 (UTC) Ordered Well I preordered it from Amazon just now. $17 and change, though if the price goes down between now and the release date I've got the Low Price Guarantee. (I often wonder how Amazon arrives at such arcane numbers for its discounted prices.) Here's hoping this money is spent less in vain than the money I paid for HW. Turtle Fan 03:23, April 11, 2010 (UTC) Sample chapter Here. TR 00:35, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :I'll read it tomorrow. Turtle Fan 02:33, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :1 What an odd point to stop a scene at. ::There might be more. DelRey does their excerpts screwy sometimes. TR 19:55, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :::True. I remember when the paperback version of RE came out and they included Carsten's first scene from DttE in the back. It ended so abruptly that, coupled with Mak's cryptic spoilers of who died, I could have sworn the scene went on a few more paragraphs and ended with him being sunk. Turtle Fan 22:38, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :2 So Name Changing Dude (Theodosios, wonderful--At least we get to write an article on Edward Gibbon) takes over for German Ramsey. I think he'll lose some of his mystique by dint of long exposure. They usually do (Ilmarinen being one exception to that rule, mostly). ::Given that he is Name Changing Dude, I'm surprised HT chose him as a POV. That's a How-Many-Stars-On-The-US-Flag type gaffe. I would have just shuffled him out of the series altogether. TR 19:55, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :::Notice that he's changed, or at least increased, his name once again. I'm sure it will be consistent here on out, though. Turtle Fan 22:38, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :3 The gunner's from a small town outside of Munster and is fresh out of BT where he specialized in armor. He's big and athletic. I don't remember whether Jewish Girl is from outside of Munster, but that might be your man, TR. ::Jewish Girl is from Munster. Yes, yes, that could be Fugitive Brother. TR 19:55, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :::Sounds like a good bet, then. He matches the description. The name doesn't ring a bell, but out of universe, it wouldn't anyway because it's so hard to remember details fom that snoozefest; and in universe, obviously he'd be using a fake name. :::He can't tell Theo or the commander his secret so I'm not clear on how it's going to be part of his character. ::::Perhaps Hossbach learns the truth and Does Something or Does Nothing. Hossbach vaguely reminds me Straubing from GW, the guy who put efficiency above everything. Hossbach has a similar quality: "Is my radio working? The tank driver's a fugitive Jew? But my radio still works, right? Let him drive the tank, then." TR 23:09, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :::::Hossbach's probably going to be less . . . less autistic, I guess you'd say . . . now that he's a POV. True he ignored the commander, but the character as he had been won't really work anymore. He's going to have to be more grounded. That or he'll be a useless POV even by HW standards. "Hossbach sat around daydreaming. Much later he learned how the campaign had ended; he hadn't noticed at the time." :::::But keeping Fugitive Jew's secret does seem in keeping with such character as he has, yes. He is, after all, the one who was "a beat too slow" in heiling Hitler when that potentate showed up. Turtle Fan 23:43, April 23, 2010 (UTC) ::::::You know, aside from Hans-Ulrich Rudel, none of the German characters have been particularly rabid Nazis. Actually, aside from Hans, I don't think any of the main POVs have Nazis at all, have they? I may be overemphasizing his Nazism because he was unrepentent in OTL. TR 03:36, April 24, 2010 (UTC) :::::::Hans struck me more as being hopelessly naive than as having actually bought into Nazism at this point. The effect is largely the same, but he arrives at it in a way that's less offensive than it is exasperating. :::::::As for the others, you know how they all run together, so sussing them out isn't really possible, but I didn't find anyone who felt like a party stalwart in the POV ranks (obviously there were plenty of supporting characters for whom this is not true). That's also true of Soviet Pilot. That's another reason I kept wanting to smack Weinberg: The people who grow up with this horseshit, who might have the excuse of not knowing better, aren't buying into it; you, who should know better, are. Turtle Fan 05:55, April 24, 2010 (UTC) :::Everything of interest for him will have to be covered by messages he can get home to Jewish Girl. (Which name, much to my disgust, keeps making me picture that horrid Sarah Silverman.) Turtle Fan 22:38, April 23, 2010 (UTC) ::::Gee, thanks, now I'll see Sarah Silverman in her scenes going forward. TR 23:09, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :::::It's you who coined "Jewish Girl." It is a shame that that's the connection I draw when there are so many nice, agreeable Jewish girls out there. Not sure where that bitch came from. Turtle Fan 23:43, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :4 Now we get to give Schlieffen a TWTPE section. Whee! Turtle Fan 19:39, April 23, 2010 (UTC) ::Done and done. I actually just gave the Schlieffen Plan an article. TR 19:55, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :::Saw that. Cool. Turtle Fan 22:38, April 23, 2010 (UTC) ::::Treaty of Versailles is another article I think TWTPE had made more relevent. TR 23:09, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :::::Indubitably. Probably the only time it's truly relevant--We could have worked it into Colonization, but the necessity wouldn't've really leapt out, you know? Trianon could also stand a little something. Turtle Fan 23:43, April 23, 2010 (UTC) Codeine You know, it didn't hit me till just now, but it's a little odd that the nurse gave Theodosius a bottle full of narcotic pills which he could take with no monitoring whatsoever. She didn't even say "Make sure you never take more than x number of pills in y amount of time." I know it's the 30s and that the rules are a little diffrent in field medicine in time of war, but still, the casualness with which they're letting controlled substances flit about in untrained hands is a little bracing. And it's not just the medics. The officer who pulled Theo out didn't seem to care that he was risking having a drug addict operating delicate, important equipment on the front lines. The Gestapo wasn't present in the scene but if it's so easy to get codeine, wouldn't law enforcement have to worry about people who could get pills they didn't need selling them to people who "needed" pills they couldn't get? Turtle Fan 06:15, April 25, 2010 (UTC) :I didn't give it much thought, probably for the reasons you cited: 30s and war time. I will say that the history of addiction and abuse is generally a repeated pattern naive assumptions being blown up by harsh reality. TR 18:53, April 25, 2010 (UTC) ::Individually, or socially? The former's certainly true, and that's what the surgeons are risking by giving out opiates without even prescribing dosages. :::Both. The opiates in particular, if memory serves, were hailed in turn as a solution to all our pain problems. Then everyone figured out that as, you said, just handing them out willy-nilly is bad. Heck, even prescribing the stuff has its risks. One of my friend's moms was prescribed an opiate after major surgery. The doctors flat out told them both that she was going to be addicted to it at some point, but the alternative was unbearable pain while she healed. My friend actually administered the dosage, and it really disturbed him when she started begging for more pills. He kept her on the straight and narrow, so she got over it. ::::My God, how horrible! But yes, it certainly was overestimated. I think the entire history of medicine could on some level be understood as the discovery of unintended consequences of overhyped panaceas. Turtle Fan 22:42, April 25, 2010 (UTC) :::Well, that took us completely off topic. TR 22:02, April 25, 2010 (UTC) ::::Oh not so much. It flowed from what we'd been discussing. But I can see where it's not something you'd want to be reminded of. Turtle Fan 22:42, April 25, 2010 (UTC) ::I'm sure nothing will come of it storywise, but I did notice it, well after the fact. I remember O'Dull, of all the people who might make an interesting observation, having some concerns about the long-term consequences of giving out painkillers like they were lollipops, and one of his medics (Granny, Donofrio, Good Lord, I can't remember) saying it was more important to get the soldiers fit for duty again. Front-line field medicine. Turtle Fan 21:45, April 25, 2010 (UTC) Getting the US into the war So, since the summary invites speculation, what will be bringing the US into the war? Obviously, HT played-up the US-Japanese tensions, in the McGill scenes, but the prescence of Japanese Soldier on the Steppe made it clear that Japan was going to hit the USSR, which came to fruition. :The US will surely still find Japan distasteful even if Japan keeps out of its way. In the 30s Japan was antagonizing both Washington and Moscow even though everyone knew it could at best beat only one or the other. Washington and Moscow started circling the wagons to try to nudge Japan back onto the straight and narrow, which as I recall was a fairly major factor in FDR being able to make recognition of the USSR at long last politically palatable. :Still, I doubt that's enough. Japan's not even in the Axis at this point. One assumes they'll cooperate with Germany against the USSR to some small extent--not that they cooperated any too well against the US and UK in OTL--but even if an all-out war breaks out against Japan, I don't see the US going after Germany, nor Germany wading into that if they don't have a compelling reason. Turtle Fan 02:02, April 27, 2010 (UTC) Does that rule out tensions between the US and Japan? We also have the sinking of the Athenia, and we have a lot of Americans in Spain. Not sure if either of those will be enough, but, those seem to be the only "contact points" between the US and Europe. TR 22:48, April 26, 2010 (UTC) :The Athenia was a while ago story-wise, and at worst it's just another Lusitania, though in practice it's much less than even that despite the fact that it was actually flying the US flag. I thought the Abe Lincolns didn't have a ton of domestic support but I'm no expert and I might be remembering the after-the-fact damage done to their public image by the McCarthyists. Turtle Fan 02:02, April 27, 2010 (UTC) I'm sure there's an element in the US that's jumping out of its boots to get involved in the war, as in OTL. But there will also be isolationists, and their position is stronger this time. The assassination of Henlein really does make it look like Hitler had legitimate grievances against Czechoslovakia, and Anglo-French support for Prague can consequently be cast in the light of the same sort of bullying that gave us Versailles. The fact that they're actually defending Poland, and against Stalin no less, will play even better in neutral countries. (It also makes the Japanese invasion of Siberia and Kazakhstan look a little better: "You launched an unprovoked attack on your neighbor, serves you right that another neighbor did the same to you.") If Hitler starts making flagrant violations of other countries' neutrality, the interventionists' position will be buttressed. As I recall HW was typically unhelpful in describing what got Belgium, Luxembourg, and the Netherlands into the Allied camp. Anything less than an unprovoked invasion won't help the American interventionists much. :It was unprovoked. They were basically trying Schlieffen again. So there is that. More Rape of Belgium? TR 03:22, April 27, 2010 (UTC) Even an unprovoked invasion will be less helpful than it might: people who live in big countries on one continent love to ignore the plights of small countries on another continent when it's not convenient to do otherwise. Look at how many decades the Japanese were allowed to beat up on Taiwan and Korea and Okinawa and anyone else they pleased with an Anglo-American wink and a nod (plus a very blunt warning from TR that the Philippines were hands-off). It was only when they hit China that people started giving a shit. And I know Asia counted for less than Europe in the minds of Americans of that time, but that still doesn't mean Europe counted for a helluva lot. One of America's most respected politicians spent all of 1914, 1915, and 1916 railing about how horrible was the German invasion of Belgium, and people who had voted for him for President multiple times just got tired of it. :So no poor Belgium again. TR 03:22, April 27, 2010 (UTC) ::I don't think so. Remember, the US really wound up with nothing to show for WWI, and not even a full generation has passed by HW, so people remember this very well. (They also remember the recession which followed it, the oversupply, the shock to the job market of returning veterans, and the social ills which followed this, of course, as well as all the alleged radical agitators who were drawn out of the woodwork by the chaos in the wake of Brest-Litovsk and Trianon.) If you're going to ask Americans to risk all that again, you'd better be able to give them a better reason than they had last time, not the same reason (which just suggests that a cycle of war and unjust peace will continue to the end of time, as happened between the US and CS in 191, except now the US has the option of keeping out of it). What are you going to think in 2025 when the President asks you to support militarily-imposed regime change in a strategically located country ruled by a strong man with a despicable human rights record, a belligerent foreign policy, and a possible interest in acquiring superweapons? Turtle Fan 04:14, April 27, 2010 (UTC) What we do know about the war in the Low Countries is that as soon as they asked for terms they were granted them, and generously. If Hitler's reputation suffered by attacking them at all, that should go a ways toward rehabilitating it. There's still the great question mark of Denmark. If they're making Allied overtures, then, again, they give Berlin something close enough to a casus belli to satisfy those who are looking for reasons not to get involved. If they're just minding their business when out of left field comes the Heer, some doors crack open, but again, it's going to take a lot to get Americans excited about Denmark. If, as I suggested above, Hitler goes in to chase Peggy before she gets back to America with ruinous intelligence . . . well then it would be that intelligence which would do it. And HT might handle it very top-secret until very late in the game, as he did with Yeager's discovery in the last Col book. I'm trying to imagine what could be so damning--regardless of whether Peggy discovers it--and I'm actually thinking first-hand accounts of Nazi human rights violations might do it. Now I know that all through the 30s Americans knew, and didn't particularly care, that the man with the moustache wasn't exactly buying Jewish kids ice cream cones every week, but the really filthy laundry was not aired internationally. Maybe Peggy can demonstrate an Einsatzgruppen massacre behind the lines in Poland. McGill said, in the wonderful spirit of racial enlightenment which permeated the times, that you expect that sort of thing when Japan fights China but assume that Europeans will be more civilized. So it might have more shock value than did the Rape of Nanking. (Hey, if an appeal to the collective ego of the white race will help the most desperate people in the world, you can't afford the luxury of refusing to make it. If I had such a chance to get people excited about opposing Kim Jong-Il, for instance, I'd do what I had to do.) Anyway, there's precedent in the HT canon. It's the massacre of Kaunians which got Kuusamo into the war--the war against Algarve, anyhow: they'd been fighting Gyongyos for quite some time before that. And it really came out of nowhere. Their relationship with Algarve had been cordial enough before that, but as soon as the massacres started, it was war. And neither was this a case of the Seven Princes being uncomfortable with such an aggressive nation stumbling on a powerful new superweapon, one with theoretically unlimited range. That had a little bit to do with that, but we have a POV in the scene in which the Princes make their decision about the war, and in their deliberations, feelings of a moral obligation to oppose the massacres dominate. Turtle Fan 02:02, April 27, 2010 (UTC) Defection I'm wondering if Jewish Girl's Brother might end up defecting. I had thought of that out of nowhere earlier. It might not be in W&E but it might come at some point. Maybe Name Changing Dude tips him off that the SS was asking about him and he makes a break for it. Then an Allied POV captures him, gets his story (HT would probably have him expose his circumcision to lend credence to the story) and kicks him up to HQ. That would be good for two somewhat interesting scenes. Turtle Fan 05:15, May 12, 2010 (UTC) :That sort of story arc had occurred to me recently as well. TR 16:00, May 12, 2010 (UTC) ::Could be an omen, then. I think HT will soon grow tired of the novelty of a Jew in the Wehrmacht, and that when he does he'll find it repugnant. So his options will be have him get caught, have him KIA, or get him out of there. And the first two are so grim that maybe, just maybe. . . . ::I wonder if Jewish Girl's Brother has an OTL inspiration. I've never heard of a single Jew who fought for the Nazis in disguise but I wouldn't have much difficulty imagining such a thing. Turtle Fan 16:51, May 12, 2010 (UTC) :::I'm not aware of such a situation either. It does sort of illustrate that maybe the early war spared Jews some hard times. ::::That's possible. I started to wonder whether Poland being an ally rather than a conquered province might allow the Polish government to protect its Jews, as the Hungarian government was able to do for a while. Then I remembered that every Polish character we've met was rooting for Germany because of Jew hatred. :::::Indeed. Looking back into the record, it appears the Polish government was following a fairly similar line on the Jews that the Nazis did. A fact which hurts I find embarassing. TR 20:42, May 12, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Embarrassing . . . Well it does reflect none too well on Warsaw. I guess the big question is, how realistic is it? HT has always shown Poles happy enough to be rid of their minority, but the historical record is . . . a bit more complex, we might want to say. Turtle Fan 21:22, May 12, 2010 (UTC) ::::By the way, you suppose Mr Intermission is going to cross paths with any of the Jewish refugees who settled in Shanghai at some point? I doubt it would be in W&E, probably in a later volume. Though most likely the Japanese will have gone to war with the US and thrown the USMC out of Shanghai by that point. Maybe Intermission is killed and the Russian dancer takes his place? (This "Well if A then B, but if C then D, and if D then E . . . " free-for-all is the problem with trying to extrapolate multiple volumes ahead, even in a series as generally predictable as this one.) Turtle Fan 19:53, May 12, 2010 (UTC) :::::The possibility that Intermission will die does seem hinted at in HW. He often reflects on the fact that if war broke out, the Marines would stand no chance against the sheer number of Japanese troops. That was in Beijing, though. Shanghai does leave an escape hatch. TR 20:42, May 12, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Americans didn't have much luck evacuating Shanghai when the real war started. The trick is to withdraw when relations have deteriorated to the point that war is right around the corner, but when there's still time to evacuate without too much probability of coming under fire. The thing is, if Mister Intermission's still alive at this point, we'll be reading about his madcap adventures wherever else he shows up. If he dies in Shanghai he can turn his POV duties over to someone who will still be there after the Pacific is lit aflame. ::::::Hmm, this dance girl of his sounds like she's involved in the resistance. Maybe he'll end up in the wrong place at the wrong time and be killed accidentally. That will cause an incident between Washington and Tokyo, which might also play into the maneuvering to get America into the war. Turtle Fan 21:22, May 12, 2010 (UTC) :::Incidentally, I think I know why you conjured up Sarah Silverman when we started in on the Jewish Girl thing...the character's name is Sarah Goldman. TR 19:37, May 12, 2010 (UTC) ::::That will do it. It pisses me off that I've made that association, because now I can't unmake it. And I'd be hard-pressed to think of a more annoying TV personality. And I remember when The Nanny put Fran Drescher on the A-list. Turtle Fan 19:53, May 12, 2010 (UTC) :::::Good news: I just read that that horrible Silverman girl got sacked by Comedy Central. Good riddance to bad rabble. Turtle Fan 16:24, May 13, 2010 (UTC) Reviews at amazon Here. The PW review is the more lukewarm, so I find it more believable. The Booklist review is more helpful in terms of what might happening, but feels way to enthusiastic, given how HW read. TR 17:11, July 17, 2010 (UTC) :" . . . apparently fed by infinite soldiers," heh heh heh. Turtle Fan 18:29, July 17, 2010 (UTC) :Alistair Walsh acquires a pet cat. Yes, that will lead to suspense building inexorably, all right. Turtle Fan 18:29, July 17, 2010 (UTC) ::And heads to Norway. Yes! TR 22:03, July 17, 2010 (UTC) :::Norway has potential, though it sounds like he just gets sick of the weather (which isn't really all that different from the rest of Central Europe's for most of the year, at least not in the southern reaches, and the northern reaches are only marginally habitable). Turtle Fan 00:14, July 18, 2010 (UTC) :::By the way, I've wondered from time to time why HT had the Brits invade Norway in TL-191. They probably would have been willing to do whatever the Brits wanted them to do if they'd asked nicely, unless Anglo-Norwegian relations had REALLY deteriorated during the AE years. I can't imagine why they would have. Turtle Fan 00:14, July 18, 2010 (UTC) ::::In OTL, Germany got much of its iron ore from Sweden, which in turn was moved through Norway at Navrik. Britain actually began contemplating invading Norway to on cut off the ore in 1939-1940. Germany simply beat them to the punch. ::::I imagine that a similar situation existed in 191. Certainly, Norway would lose quite a bit by giving Britain whatever it was asking for if it meant cutting off biz with Germany. That's my guess, anyway. TR 18:12, July 19, 2010 (UTC) :::::In time of peace I can see why they'd want to keep all their customers well-disposed, but in time of war Britain was their natural ally. Hell, the only reason Norway had made good on its secession from the much stronger Sweden in 1905 was that London's ambassador to Stockholm had made plain his government's intention to support Norwegian independence on pain of war if necessary. In 1940, that was a recent enough memory for . . . just about everyone. Turtle Fan 18:56, July 19, 2010 (UTC) :So the Germans are taking all of Scandinavia? Not leaving Sweden as a pliable neutral, as they did in OTL? And poor Peggy's stuck there--But she's got the note from Hitler, shouldn't that get her through the lines? Unless Sweden is neutral, is unimpressed by Hitler's note and is insisting she stay there for her own protection? Whereas if the Nazis took Sweden, she'd be able to leave. . . . Oh the delicious irony. After which it will get boring real fast. Turtle Fan 18:29, July 17, 2010 (UTC) :I wonder why Mr Intermission can't marry Vera. As I recall, a CO can veto a marriage by a deployed US serviceman to a local woman. Maybe Intermission's CO discovers Vera is working for the NKVD, and Intermission insists she isn't. . . . Turtle Fan 18:29, July 17, 2010 (UTC) ::On the plus side, this does say Shang-hai, not Singapore. Maybe White Russian has some special thing she needs to do before she marries? TR 22:03, July 17, 2010 (UTC) :::Hell, he could spend the whole book trying to help her smooth over the legal complications of statelessness, it would still be a step up from his HW scenes. Turtle Fan 00:14, July 18, 2010 (UTC) :Chaim Weinberg isn't a Soviet soldier, he just wishes he were. Sounds like he's set to become even more tiresome. Turtle Fan 18:29, July 17, 2010 (UTC) ::On the other hand, he's probably getting off the battle field, and we might get some actual politics. :::That would be nice. I'd hate to have to rely on Weinberg to get it; he somehow managed to make me actively dislike him, despite the fact that I felt hardly any investment in the book at all. Turtle Fan 00:14, July 18, 2010 (UTC) ::Also, glad to hear Yaroslavsky gets to see Warsaw. TR 22:03, July 17, 2010 (UTC) :::Someone has to; the Polish front is shaping up to be extremely significant. And it would be nice to see Yaro do something other than bitch about the rasputnik. Turtle Fan 00:14, July 18, 2010 (UTC) :At any rate, I'll admit these reviews have tickled my fancy. I'm now looking forward to W&E, whereas for most of the year I thought I wouldn't give a shit. Turtle Fan 18:29, July 17, 2010 (UTC) First Scenes The paperback version of HW came out. As is the usual practice these days, it's one of those oversized, overpriced "trade paperback" editions that costs twice as much as the mass market editions we saw for everything up through VO, books whose quality made them a better value even without the price differential. Not that I should care, I've been buying hardcovers every summer since 1999, so that the lack of value is even more telling. What was I talking about, again? Oh, right, the paperback edition of HW. It has the first three scenes of W&E, as is also the usual practice. The first scene is the bit from Name-Changing Dude which was posted online months ago. The second is Alistair Walsh in some French village that's been bombarded to hell and gone. In the interests of Tweedom! he reflects how stupid it would be to fight a world war over Poland. (Not sure what, if anything, makes Czechoslovakia more deserving, but he mentioned Poland, not Czechoslovakia, which would be like us wondering whether it would be worth our while to send an army to Afghanistan in the event of a terror attack on the Sears Tower.) The third scene is set in Siberia and establishes the relevance of the Siberian Tiger. I have to say, from that quick perusal I enjoyed the jumping all over the map. It gives a sense that something huge, something enormous, something far beyond the ability of any person or group to experience and make sense of is going on, and that the disparate experiences of very different people from all over the world are being knit together in one massive narrative that will gradually tie them more and more closely together until it reaches a single climax. HT hasn't written a book like that in a long time: Last year everyone was in the same place doing the same thing, and those who weren't were doing nothing worth mentioning. MwIH felt very small in scope because everyone was reacting to the same few events, you've already heard my rant about the uneven POV distribution of GWII, and even GWI and the interwar years didn't offer the same feeling of diversity of POVs that you really need to sell this kind of feeling. Obviously Atlantis was worlds away from such a feeling; it wasn't that kind of story to begin with. I'd have to go back to the first four Worldwar books and the Derlavai series to remember the last time a Turtledove story made me feel that way. (More recently, Birmo has captured the same feeling, with both Axis of Time and Without Warning.) The idea of comparing TWTPE to Worldwar is just laughable, but these first three scenes felt like Derlavai and held my interest about as well. HT could do worse. Then again, the first few scenes of HW held my interest as well, so declaring that TWTPE has grown up and is as good as Derlavai would be as premature as the ejaculation for which the series is named. Turtle Fan 03:55, July 18, 2010 (UTC) Owned So I now own West and East. I can't help thinking what an anticlimax it is. Every year, even after the series started sucking, acquiring a TL-191 book was a big deal, cause for celebration. Now? Please. Oh well. Time to see if this one's any better. Turtle Fan 02:22, July 28, 2010 (UTC) :Mine should be appearing tomorrow. Having that to read plus my insane trial schedule means I'm probably going to MIA in August. TR 04:47, July 28, 2010 (UTC) ::Oh. We'll miss you. Won't be the same around here. ::Actually, I suspect nothing will get done in your absence. Hard to stay motivated to do any work without the example of our most industrious member. Still I suppose I could clamp down and put up W&E articles so next year we won't end up with the mild embarrassment of having hardly anything written for months and months after we've finished reading it. ::In other news, the dust jacket still accuses Mr Intermission of being in Singapore, so no one caught that, though the first word of his first scene is "Shanghai" (and that's not followed up with something like " . . . was not the city in which Pete McGill found himself; rather, he was in Singapore.") The book is dedicated to this guy. I noticed the name in the dedication and was like "Am I supposed to know who that is?" Googled him and, whaddya know, I got a fairly extensive obit/life story as my first hit. But he is indeed an ordinary schlub. No mention of the connection to Turtledove, but he was a SoCal resident so maybe they were neighbors or something. Or maybe HT loves SoCal so much that he takes the death of every single Californicator personally, with the exception, perhaps, of all the politicians he likes to piss on. Turtle Fan 05:57, July 28, 2010 (UTC) Vague predictions I was thinking about this the other day, and what we sort of know about the series and past HT writing. And I feel as if Germany is in about the same position as the CS was at the end of WiH: the writing is on the wall, but they're still fighting because they can't say it's over yet. Yes, Germany did walk over Denmark and into Norway, but that worked because Denmark had no military to speak of. Norway has begun putting up a fight. France is still pushing east. The USSR has broken through in Poland. Hitler has survived a second plot against in him in two years, and that has to be taking a toll on his popularity. It's also worth remembering that the fact that this would be a six book series only came to light after the first book was published, and that the third book is called The Big Switch. I predict the following: the German people and the Wehrmact, seeing a replay of 1918, force the Nazis out, raise the white flag, and then convince the Allies to help them fight off the Red Menace that is the USSR. Since Japan is already working on the USSR in the east, the idea is attractive, and so comes "the big switch" of the title, as everyone dog-piles on the USSR. TR 02:00, August 22, 2010 (UTC) :USSR versus the world? I very much like the idea of the war suddenly getting more complicated, with changing sides to make this war very different from what we're used to. :One problem is, as all the WWI references seem to suggest, the Allies seem to be of the opinion that Germany need not be Nazi to be dangerous. They've got a point, too; anyone of that generation who led the country would surely have pursued a hawkish foreign policy. I doubt the French and especially the British would be prepared to trust Canaris or Jodl or whomever so much farther than Hitler that they'd be willing to put a gun in his hands. They might, however, be willing to cock-block the Soviets while leaving Germany dependent on their good will. . . . :George Friedman, an analyst I've always found to be quite astute, has suggested several times that the British have a natural, in-bred horror of a united continental Europe and so will always support the continent's second-greatest power in a contest against the first-greatest: NATO in the Cold War, the Allies in WWII, France in WWI, the Coalitions in the Napoleonic era, Prussia in the Seven Years' War, and so on, going as far back as the sixteenth century, when England was a friend to any foe of the Hapsburgs. Earlier than that neither England nor Scotland were consistently strong enough to affect continental matters to a great enough extent that a standing policy would form. :These days Europe's not much of a battleground, but notice that, while the UK belongs to the EU, it's perhaps the single most jealous guardian of national sovereignty in the entire group. Nick Clegg was a very loud voice in favor of encouraging the EU to consolidate its power, and the Lib Dems lost seats in the election. They wound up in government anyway, but their pro-EU manifesto was the first thing to go when they made compromises with the Tories, and now Clegg is deputy to a PM who's been campaigning for limits on EU power for years. :Anyway, Friedman predicts a Russian reemergence some time in the 20s and says Britain will get back to supporting the beta dog against the alpha as soon as a beta dog emerges (Friedman further predicts that the most likely contender for that spot will be a coalition of center-right Eastern European governments, led by Poland, who resent EU intrusion and bitterly remember Soviet occupation.) :If indeed Britain can always be relied upon to follow this policy, your scenario might get even more complicated pretty quickly. Turtle Fan 03:41, August 22, 2010 (UTC)